Top Chef Season 4 -- Nouveau Summer Rolls

I've been out of the country and upon my return, Simon Bao notified me that Top Chef contestants in season 4 are putting interesting twists on Vietnamese culinary concepts. Perhaps with Hung's win last season, the door is opening up to incorporating Viet ideas into the food.

Recently, contestant Spike Mendelson and Manuel Trevino make this little ditty:

Summer Roll with Black Vermicelli (see recipe)

Let me make a few points, and I suppose I'll get my aggression out first and then you're free to weigh in...

The name "Summer Roll" -- What's with calling these hand rolls summer rolls? Is it versus Chinese spring rolls? These Vietnamese rolls are a year round food. Chinese spring rolls are literally called that in Chinese, and they're a traditional food that's enjoyed during Lunar New Year. I translate the Viet rolls as salad rolls because their original name goi cuon is literally salad roll since most of the common elements of a goi (special event salad) are cuon (rolled up) in a sheath of rice paper.

Now, there's a bit Chinese garlic chive that gets tucked in there and that's a summer veggie. Is that why they're called summer rolls by so many English-speaking people? Because of the seasonality of the chives?

The other name that I've  often seen is "fresh spring roll." Is that opposed to an old one?

In Saigon, there's now a restaurant dedicated to rolling stuff up in rice paper. It's a roll-your-own joint called "cuon" because that's the generic name for these rolls -- rolls.

This is a global issue that I've noticed for years and no one has been able to answer the question for me...what's with "summer roll" and "fresh spring roll"? Do tell if you have a hunch!

As for the specific recipe presented on Top Chef, it seems to have been rather creative. I like the Chilean Sea Bass (which frankly shouldn't be used because it's a no-no fish on the overfished list; see the Monterey Bay Aquarium's Seafood Watch page for information on sustainable seafood) .  Catfish, regular seabass, trout, or butterfish would have been nice. As for the black vermicelli (bun), I've seen that pricey product at the Asian market so it was a good, trick to use.

The odd thing was with the dipping sauce, called Apple clam -- which I mistook for a kind of mollusk. Lo and behold, it's a sauce make with -- ahem... fish sauce, apple soda, apple cider vinegar, lime juice and chiles. I suppose that was to match the apples in the roll.

I often feel that cooks take modern/nouveau twists on sushi and roll it up in rice paper. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it tastes good.

I'm not sure if this tasted good -- especially on the bed of chard. I guess it wasn't great since one of the chefs was eliminated...

Any insights from you all?

Comments

[Robyn]

Maybe 'summer rolls' because - it's always summer in Vietnam (in the south, at least). Alas, we have no access to Top Chef here, but I don't even like the sound of 'bed of chard' next to 'summer roll'.

[Rosa]

I prefer to stick to the traditional version which I love!

Those modern versions are interesting and delicious, but can't be compared to the original Summer Rolls... They are just too different. It's something else!

Cheers,

Rosa

[Neneh]

My only thought about the term "fresh spring roll" is to differentiate from deep fried spring rolls - the herbs and vegetables are fresh. Then I have heard people refer to deep fried spring rolls (cha gio) as imperial rolls. Ooops... is this just adding to the confusion?

[Simon Bao]

Andrea, the rolls served on Top Chef could not have been very good, as all 4 judges and all 8 dinner guests chose those Cuon as their least favorite among 6 dishes. It was all a bit disappointing because, on paper, in his persona as "Chef Spike," the chef responsible for selecting and making fish-filled Cuon, he has a good CV. And he works at Mai House in Manhattan. And says he's been cooking Vietnamese food for 2+ years.

I hope the poor reception given to fish-filled Cuon on Top Chef doesn't cause people to hesitate to order or to make their own fish-filled Cuon. They're wonderful rolls, they just have to be made properly. They are not typically an example of a "haute Viet cuisine," although with the right composition they can be - and fish-filled Cuon are on the menu at Le Colonial SF and Bao 111 and similar places.

It's typical for Viets to have these rolls when a small or large group gathers, or a house full of people are eating and drinking together on a Saturday night. An informal setting. Depending on their size, the fish are cooked whole when possible, grilled or broiled or roasted. Andrea nominates her preferred fish above, and in this area we use striped bass, black sea bass, sea trout, salmon. The most common choice is bluefish. But never the Tilapia that was "Chef Spike's" original choice for these rolls. (Tilapia? Really???) If you have a fish that's not too flaky, a fish with flesh that holds together well on a skewer, that is a fish that's begging to be filleted, sliced into sections, skewered and grilled.

But if you want to make them, first browse around Andrea's site, she has information here on how to make Cuon. Then, IMHO...

* Don't rub chili paste on the fish, leave the fish alone, seasoned simply with S&P, brushed with a bit of oil, the cavity perhaps filled with fresh herbs... but no chili paste rubbed into the flesh. If one wants heat in the rolls, offer people julienne slices of red-ripe jalapeno or mirasol or other hot pepper with some "fruit" to its flavor.

* Don't fail to properly rehydrate the rice noodles, those are meant to be tender. Chef Spike apparently failed to rehydrate them enough and served tough chewy noodles in the rolls, noodles that fought back.

* Don't pack the rolls with noodles. These aren't supposed to be Starch Bombs. Fish and herbs and greens should dominate. If I were serving fish-filled Cuon on Top Chef, I'd omit the noodles or add just enough to honor the original.

* Do consider using all the herbs and fresh veggies Andrea describes elsewhere, but don't pair fish with apples. I just can't believe that's good, I've been tasting that in my Mind's Mouth and "ick." Thin slices of tart/crisp apple do pair well when you're putting flavorful grilled pork in the rolls, but I think probably not with fish. Very thin slices of grilled pineapple do pair with fish though.

* Chef Spike's "Apple Clam" recipe turns out to be a typo for something he really does call "Apple Cham." He calls it that on his own Vietnamese tasting menu. His riff on Nuoc Cham, but the phrase "Apple Cham" is howlingly funny. "Apple Clam" sounds like it would make more sense. Use regular Nuoc Cham as your dip, save all the "Apple Cham" for Spike's guests.

[Simon Bao]

Andrea, I can't help myself, I have to comment on how Chef Spike served those Cuon to his guests. For those who did not see, he served them on a square white plate that was covered with a large square of dried banana leaf.

I'm sure that in a restaurant setting with American customers, plating Vietnamese food on a banana leaf must seem evocative somehow. Tropical, Asiatique, that final touch of Olde Saigon.

But to me, a banana leaf is just a food wrapper. We wrap Cha Lua, Banh Bot Loc, Banh Nam or Banh Tet or other foods in banana leaves when we're going to steam them. We leave that wrapper on till we're ready to serve or eat the food inside, but the banana leaf doesn't transform into evocative plating. It's just a food wrapper.

So, if an American Top Chef were to serve his best Vietnamese dish to me, plated on a banana leaf, I'd think that was very odd. And when it was my turn to serve him some American food, I'd plate my dish on top of some Glad Wrap or wax paper and set that in front of him. "Please... enjoy!"

Serious, to me that would be like me making a Mexican dish, and plating it in an evocative fashion by serving it on top of corn husks.

And I wondered, if no banana leaves had been available, would Chef Spike have pulled up some bamboo flooring and plated his rolls on top of that?

[Andrea Nguyen]

Ah, Chef Spike is from Mai House, a Drew Nieporent restaurant group establishment that has Michael Bao Huynh as the chef/owner. "Now I see," said the blind man...

As for the "Apple Clam" -- thanks for the clarification that it is a typo -- Top Chef -- which has a lot more resources than any of us here -- ought to get their information spelled correctly, especially if it's in a foreign language. Maybe it could be the name of a new cocktail?

So Simon, was the bed of chard atop the banana leaf? I agree with Robyn that that sounds gross.

Aside from being a food wrapper, a banana leaf can also be used as nature's placemat or as a plate. You can slap some sticky rice on a piece of banana leaf and sell it to someone as a disposable -- totally biodegradable takeaway container too. But I agree that you'd rarely use it for mere decor.

[Andrea Nguyen]

As for Spring Roll, Summer Roll, and Fresh Spring Roll, my hubby reminded me this evening that sometimes people just weirdly categorize new foreign things as they encounter them. While I don't think that this is a case quite like calling Mumbai Bombay and Beijing Peking, I do think that it's a little strange.

All your hunches are in the right direction but for the life of me, I don't know what the answer is. For my book, I spent days thinking about how to translate cha gio into English and decided on calling them "fried crab and shrimp rolls". They're not a Viet version of a Chinese spring roll and they've been called imperial roll in the past (check an old Larousse's Gastronomique). Frankly, what's wrong with calling them cha gio (chah yaw/zaw)?

But that summer roll business really perplexes me...

[Andrea Nguyen]

And another thing before I got to sleep --- whenever the Food Network airs the episode of Iron Chef in which Mario Batali rolls a fatty rice paper roll, I hear about it. Yes, I've seen that segment and was rather appalled. Batali had just gone to Vietnam and he was so enthusiastic about the trip that he had to make his own version of a rice paper roll. It was so overstuffed that it burst at one point. He should have practiced a little bit before doing it on air.

If I were going to make fresh pasta on TV, I'd practice first.

[Simon Bao]

Andrea, if someone told me a guy is Chef de Cuisine at Mai House, I'll expect something much better than a poorly executed fish Cuon. Yikes.

To answer your question about the Swiss Chard, yes both it and the sliced sections of Cuon were just sitting on top of the banana leaf. It wasn't a bed of chard, it was just a small pile of chard sitting there all on its lonesome. The stems were sliced, then they and the leaves were blanched and quickly "pickled." It looked a little scary though, not at all an appealing pile of veg.

The image of what was offered diners can be viewed here: http://recipes.mt.bravotv.com/_images/recipes/rf_404_chilean_seabass_elim_image_large.jpg

[Simon Bao]

Andrea, overstuffing a Cha Gio or Goi Cuon is a kind of "newbie" blunder that one never likes to see.

It's not quite as big a mess as I've seen Nigella Lawson make of her "Vietnamese Salad Rolls," which came undone in a great mess. But Lawson admitted that hers were a mess, that she really didn't care, she laughed heartily and authentically about it, and went on to savor it all anyway. The right way to handle a blunder. :-)

[Trang]

Well said, I have always struggled with how others put a twist that somewhat distort the authenticity of Vietnamese cuisines. For instance, Pho has to be authentic, but I once worked at an Asian fusion restaurant where they had pho*? with the big noodles, and with grilled chicken or grilled beef as topping, with no basil, no bean sprouts. When I approached the owner, he said he had no choice but to cater to the customers who aren't familiar with authentic Vietnamese food.

Same thing with Goi Cuon, the fundamental ingredients are so basic and when they put a twist to their liking, adding other high end ingredients to pick up a notch but it comes out so non-Goi Cuon. Perhaps we should have trade marks for all of Vietnamese terms for our cuisine, and whoever use it must abide the law of its authenticity.

[Binh]

I didn't attempt to make this, so I can't comment on the way it taste. That being said, I think the comments above are a bit harsh and unfair. I am (always have been) a Vietnamese food purist - anything you call Vietnamese food should be done properly -- and I frown on the Indochina trend discussed a while back. However, what was discussed here is just a tangent of an Vietnamese dish - an inspired dish.

Food is a living thing. It evolves through time, inspired by experience, education, economic, trade. Can you imagine a French doing the same thing with banh mi - "Sacrilege, look what did they do with the pate, the mayonaise, the baguette. The taste is all wrong, oh dear, the presentation too." How about creme caramel made with coconut milk?

When you deal with the meal as an event where food is the star, presentation plays an important role and I have seen chefs use every elements available to them to put things in certain context. Banana leaves can be used as a decor just as well as wax paper. Instead of plating fries, how about making a cone out of wax paper and put the fries in there, similar to how one would get from a street stand.

By the way, banana leaf has its own special scent that comes out when you place it on the grill. Food wrapper only, it's not.

[Robyn]

I'm kind of agreeing with Binh a bit here. The words 'authentic/authenticity' make me cringe a bit when I hear them associated with food. I understand the impulse -- OK, let's not throw beef and some rice noodles in a bowl and just call it 'pho' -- but as Binh points out, food is a living, breathing thing that, like culture, morphs over time. My response to the whole Swiss chard thing was in reference to taste -- eegads, I just can't imagine Swiss chard working in ANY kind of pseudo-spring/summer roll preparation.

Cooks in any country have their own take on dishes. What is required to be 'authentic'? Most of you probably are familiar with tom kha gai (Thai coconut and chicken soup) -- well, my favorite version uses whole pieces of chicken, oyster mushrooms instead of straw, and a minimum of coconut milk so that it's more a stew than a soup. Is this authentic? It's cooked by a Thai. Can we still call it tom kha gai?

And if we're concerned to keep to authenticity, what are the requirements for a dish to be authentic? Is there a list of ingredients that MUST be included, and some that never should? Is it technique? Appearance? How it's served (the whole banana leaf thing - perhaps not in Vietnam but banana leaf is often used as a plate in Malaysian and the Philippines - the perfect biodegradable disposable dinnerware)?

I know the idea of 'authenticity' has been hashed to death but would love to know other folks' take on it, in terms of especially Asian but really any cuisines.
(Andrea - maybe you should attach a forum to this blog because you really manage to get the discussions going!)

[Andrea Nguyen]

You got it, my friends! What is authentic food?

[Simon Bao]

I'm not entirely sure how "Authenticity" entered the conversation. On "Top Chef," not a soul criticized the fish rolls for any lack of authenticity. Authenticity never came up. The guests and judges just really didn't like the dish at all.

My own criticism of the dish haven't been couched in terms of Authenticity. I see "Chef Spike" as someone who hasn't learned some fundamentals or basics about how to make a good roll. And the result was, 4 judges and 8 guests all thought that was the worst dish they were served.

The result of that was, the man least responsible for making and serving those rolls was dismissed and sent home. The villain actually responsible for them was kept on to cook again. Which makes me think there is an authentic bit of Vietnam in those rolls somewhere, after all.

As long as a person knows what a well-made dish is like, grasps the flavors and contrasts and textures and the roles that each element plays... as soon as they knos that, they're welcome to innovate in all kinds of ways. Love and kisses to Authenticity but Authenticity is not the measure of good food.

[Minh-Nhu Nguyen]

Here in Australia we seemed to have settle on calling it fresh/rice paper rolls, everyone seems very happy with that.

One thing I have to mentioned is that I often see tv chefs dunks the paper into water and leaving it for 1-2 minutes and then drying it off onto a paper towel, What the!?

As for authenticity, many 'western' chefs here love the paper as a wrapper and do take it on a different direction, one that I would never go, but I love the idea that it's so versatile and accesible.

It's so wrong but my parents eat pasta with chopsticks and fish sauce, I'm sure if my Itatlian friends ever see it I'll never hear the end of it. Not too authentic there!

Food is all about new discoveries and experiment, just make sure to practice and taste it first before you serve it up to your guest. Authentic or not great tasting food is always welcomed!

[Gastronomer]

I've been internally debating this spring/summer roll issue forever. Glad to see I'm not alone.

I grew up calling cha gio egg rolls, which is unfortunate.

I vote to call things what they are in their native language and supply a fitting description.

[Al]

Minh-Nhu,

I grew up in an Italian neighborhood. About half of the neighborhood were my Grandmother's relatives.

Pasta with fish sauce sounds good. Is there more to it than just seasoning plain pasta with the sauce?

Al

[Minh-Nhu Nguyen]

Al

I wouldn't recommend it!!!!!!!!LOL. My siblings and I are totally not too sure about this as we haven't actually been game enough to try it. But that's the only way we can get the 'oldies' to try new cuisine...!

You know what it worked though mum and dad are now more open to the idea of going out to 'western" restaurant, but we insist they leave the fish sauce at home.

BTW yes they simply squirt some from the bottle. LOL

[Al]

Minh-Nhu,

I was just curious. I have a recipe, from Jack Denton Scott's pasta book, for a "sauce" made of tuna, anchovies and capers. It looks like dried-up cat food, but is quite good on buttered pasta.

Replace the anchovies with a few squirts of fish sauce ...

Al

[Andrea Nguyen]

I'm sure the Roman had pasta with their fish sauce (liquamen) thousands of years ago. What about the pasta dish that includes anchovies, raisins and pine nuts?

Gastronomer -- I know, what do we do but discuss the naming issue in public? Drag it out and hang it up for all to examine. Why not just call the rolls goi cuon ("goy coon")? I'd be happiest with that!

[Simon Bao]

Andrea, I'm with Gastronomer and you on this.

If English-speakers can master words like sushi, sashimi, lasagna, petit-fours, and smorgasbord, they can comfortably learn to say Goi Cuon.

Is it all in my head, or do cooks and chefs eagerly embrace Japanese words for ingredients and dishes, but resist that when it comes to other cuisines? I mean, everyone is fine calling things udon, dashi, miso, soba, surimi, azuki, yuzu, matsutake, enoki, shiitake, ramen, hamachi, unagi, nori, konbu, edamame, tofu...

Do I need to go on? Cause I can. :-)

I just always wonder if there is some cultural subtext when folks master the culinary vocabulary from some places (France, Japan, etc) and resist doing so when it's a *different* cuisine.

They're called Goi Cuon, people.

Simon and Gastronomer, the Vietnamese language doesn't make it easy for non-Viet speakers to figure out how to pronounce Vietnamese food terms. All the diacritics on our language is challenging and Viet restaurateurs and food people need to meet other folks midway. I suppose, to do a little education -- offer a pronunciation guideline on menus?

It's hard to do that design-wise. My publisher and I had planned to include pronunciation for each recipe title but we couldn't fit it in design-wise so I posted the information online. But another thing it to just start using the food terms directly in text and speech. For example, "goi cuon (salad rolls) are very popular snacks in Vietnam" or "goi cuon unfried rice paper rolls are..." instead of "salad rolls (goi cuon) are ..."

Then people get used to seeing it and hearing the pronunciation. Someday it'll enter into the dictionary like pho -- which we don't have to italicize anymore, thank goodness!

[Simon Bao]

I think the best approach is to simply help an English speaker approximate the word. Few English speakers give authentic pronunciations to culinary terms or the names of dishes from France or Spain or Mexico or Lebanon, and I'm prepared to be as casual about how they pronounce Viet words.

If one really wants to advance the cause of Viet words for Viet dishes, one can write about Goi Cuon, and add in parentheses (SL Goy Coon). Meaning, sounds like goy coon. Eh... sounds close enough and an English speaker can get that out of the mouth without difficulty.

When writing about Goi Cuon it's also helpful to add in parentheses (AKA hand rolls, salad rolls, summer rolls) so that people who've never seen Goi Cuon written anywhere might recognize it by one of its other names...